Change Management & Technology with Faye Garland of THG Studios

Summary

We’ve talked a bit about change on this podcast, how could we avoid it? Change happens faster than ever and most professional adults with any amount of experience have learned to expect that. But that doesn’t mean that the practice of change management should be ignored. The opposite in fact. To keep your teams happy and productive during major changes, there’s a few things you can do to keep them from feeling unsettled, and maybe even thriving. Faye Garland, Group Head of Retouch and Image Management for THG Studios,  a UK based content creation studio joins Daniel on the podcast today to talk about maintaining a people-centric focus when it comes to change management.

Key Takeaways

• Change management in the studio starts with determining that there is a need for a process change or introducing a new technology. 
• Learn to listen to your team, not just what they're saying, but the subtext as well. Sometimes asking for help doesn't sound like someone asking for help. 
• Root cause analysis plays an important part of identifying the TRUE problem, so you don't further complicate the process by addressing a symptom. 
• Part of leveraging technology in an organization is keeping up with new features and tools that solve new problems.  Sometimes this is a dedicated team or an individual. 
• Gathering input from your team when possible, but be careful not to give too much weight to the naysayers. Someone needs to have the visibility to all of the dependencies and cost/benefits related to them, and push for the right solution despite some negative knee jerk reactions. 
• Be aware from the beginning of the process how well you will be able to support your teams. Training on a new system is as important as any other factor when determining what solution to use in your studio. 
• Be genuinely open to reversing a decision if it turns out not to work well. 
• Focus on People!

Links & Resources

Faye Garland on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fayegarland/

THG Studios on the web: https://www.thgstudios.com/

Full episode transcript

Daniel Jester:

From Creative Force, I'm Daniel Jester, and this is the E-Commerce Content Creation Podcast. We've talked a bit about change on this podcast. How could we avoid it? Change happens faster than ever, and most professional adults with any amount of experience have learned to expect that. But that doesn't mean that the practice of change management should be ignored. The opposite, in fact. To keep your teams happy and productive during major changes, there's a few things you can do to keep them from feeling unsettled and maybe even have them thrive. Faye Garland, Group Head of Retouch and Image Management for THG Studios, a UK-based content creation studio, joins me on the podcast today to talk about maintaining a people-centric focus when it comes to change management.

Faye Garland:

Main thing, I suppose, is that creatives will either thrive on change or become unsettled by it. We ask people to be emotionally engaged. That's exactly what we want. But for your business to grow, you need good change management practices in place and a real focus on people. This is relevant for a change of any size. So something you believe to be a minor tweak might actually really unsettle some individuals, and you should never underestimate the personal element and emotional responses that may result.

Daniel Jester:

Before we get into this episode, an apology and a reminder. First of all, I was recovering from a very mild bout with COVID that sort of lingered and led to some issues with my voice sounding normal. So I know, I know, anytime... There's been times in the past when people think that I'm sick on the podcast and they'll send me a message. In this case, I actually was sick. The other times, I don't know what you were listening to.

But the other thing, if you have a funny, spooky, or crazy story from life on set or in the studio, please send us your pitch. We need about two to three more good stories for our upcoming Halloween special, Studio Nightmares Volume 2. Reach out to me on LinkedIn or email us at podcast@creativeforce.io. Faye had a great story that she shared with us, but you won't hear it in this episode. You'll hear it on October 25th. So with that, let's get into this one.

This is the E-Commerce Content Creation Podcast. I am your host, Daniel Jester. Joining me for this episode, Faye Garland, Group Head of Retouch and Image Management for THG Studios. Faye, welcome to the podcast.

Faye Garland:

Hi, thank you.

Daniel Jester:

You and I met in Barcelona. I think we might have been connected on LinkedIn before then.

Faye Garland:

Yeah, I've been following you for a while.

Daniel Jester:

Don't describe it like that.

Faye Garland:

Not in a creepy way.

Daniel Jester:

So you followed me to Barcelona, and you attended the Pixelz FLOW event in Barcelona back in middle of September. What did you think of that event? Was that your first time at a Pixelz event or an industry conference at large? Tell me a little bit about what you liked about it.

Faye Garland:

Yeah. It was, I loved it. Yeah, it was great, not only cause it was in Barcelona, but I didn't really know that events like that existed for specifically e-commerce content production. So it was great. Loved the talks, loved the people. Everyone really open, would definitely be up for going again.

Daniel Jester:

Yeah, it was a nice event. Barcelona is... I mean, I think at this point it's got to be like a top three or top five city to have anything period at all, any kind of event or reason to gather. I had never been to Barcelona. I'd been to Spain one other time. In Barcelona, that was the first time. But you and I, we shared a panel. We talked about what it really took to make the shot happen-

Faye Garland:

We did.

Daniel Jester:

... with a handful of other panelists, and I think we had a pretty good conversation for the time that we had. We could have certainly spun that out into some more interesting little tidbits, lots of places to get lost in the weeds. We're not going to elaborate on that topic though for our conversation today.

You and I met and discussed in advance, we thought the right topic for us to talk about was a little bit about change management in a studio and especially a growing studio that's servicing e-commerce and in particular change management around technology. It's a topic that we've certainly touched on on this podcast, but I don't think there's enough conversations that you can have about how to engage your teams, first of all, how to determine if there's a need and an opportunity for some piece of technology to help you with your workflow, how to engage the right people at the right time in the process of evaluating and adopting that technology, and then how you can make sure that everybody's supported and set up for success. So any thoughts on this before we jump into the topic, Faye?

Faye Garland:

No, I'm keen. Yeah, let's get right in.

Daniel Jester:

So first thing we have to determine that a change needs to be made. And at what point does the idea pop in somebody's head somewhere that maybe there's some technology or maybe there's some tool or whatever it is that we can adopt, we can change about our process to help solve a specific problem or set of problems? Where does this idea come from, Faye?

Faye Garland:

We touched on a few different examples of problems that you might want to solve and maybe where there might be a technical solution for it. So some of the main examples were, let's say, frustrated teams, advance in tech, keeping up to date with the latest softwares, maybe you're holding regular reviews about your processes, you've got a continuous improvement plan in place. So those were some of the things we touched upon. We thought we'd go into some of those in a bit more detail. So advance in tech.

Daniel Jester:

One of the things that you mentioned in there that I think is important and a great thing for any person in any level of leadership in a studio to really think about is listening for your team asking for help. And the hard part about that is it doesn't always sound like... It's not always them saying, "We need help," or, "We have this problem." Sometimes it's venting frustrations. The way that you put it was perfect, which is that your team is frustrated about something, and you may have to do a little digging to kind of uncover what that problem is. I don't want to get lost down this rabbit hole, but this is a skill that I think middle and senior-level managers really need to develop and pay attention to is understanding when your team is asking for help because it doesn't always sound like them asking for help.

Faye Garland:

How many people get really frustrated with poor working software? I know I do. When your computer's running a little bit slow, I get irate. So it could be something as simple as that.

Daniel Jester:

It reminds me, I don't know, maybe this is a inaccessible story to some. I have no idea what the age demographic of this podcast is. It probably is across the board. But I can remember trying to listen to a compact disc player, an external compact disc player in my car, using the little tape deck adapter, right, and that thing not working the way that it was supposed to, and it's the worst possible time because it's your favorite song, it's a nice summer afternoon, and you're cruising around and want to listen to music. And it's like, it's disproportionately frustrating when some piece of technology-

Faye Garland:

Isn't it?

Daniel Jester:

... or equipment doesn't work the way that it's supposed to in the moment. And that's absolutely true in the studio. We've talked about it on this podcast before, I think just this last episode with Adam Parker, like the camera not tethering right to Capture One is an incredibly dumb and frustrating problem to have, but every photographer has experienced it.

Faye Garland:

Irrationally angry, yeah, I get it. So it could be something like that.

Daniel Jester:

Yeah, absolutely. So how can we start to... We need to break down this problem somehow, right? We need to start asking questions, I guess. What's the next step? Once we see the alarm bells, we see the red flags, something's not working the way that it should, how do we start to... First of all, I guess we probably should root cause analysis this problem, right, Faye?

Faye Garland:

Absolutely. So it's really good practice anyway to keep checking in with your teams, looking at your continuous improvement plans, seeing where these sort of gaps in your pipeline maybe are, and keeping on top of software like we touched on before.

Daniel Jester:

Sometimes, Faye, one problem that you might have in the studio may be because a software tool or a solution that you're using doesn't have the necessary features. Or sometimes, like you mentioned, sometimes the technology is sold off in modules, and so you might be using parts of one solution, but other parts of that solution don't necessarily fit into your workflow.

One of the things that you mentioned is keeping up to date with technology and what it can offer now. And I think this is a really important one. In the SaaS age, every month your favorite tool is changing, like the tool that we're using to record this podcast, I constantly have to keep up with what new features it's offering. And again, sometimes that does uncover for you a problem that you didn't even know that you had necessarily when this tool that you use says, "Hey, by the way, we released this new feature that allows you to do this." So having somebody in your space, and Faye, I'm curious at THG if this is your role or somebody on your team, whose job it is to just be aware of some of the changes of the tools, both the tools that you have now that you use and the ones that maybe you are interested in using once they have a feature set that aligns with the problems that you need to solve.

Faye Garland:

So we share the responsibility, to be honest. We do have an internal central ops team that will be responsible for looking at the softwares, implementing the softwares, but it's absolutely a shared responsibility across the teams to ensure that we're utilizing them to their full potential. And a lot of the creatives at THG Studio are genuinely really interested in the software that we use anyway. We'll go to the conferences that we get emailed about, and do you want to join, here are the updates. I'd always recommend dialing into those and having a listen because like you say, you might find a solution to a bottleneck that you didn't even know you had. And it's a really great simple way to evolve by just taking up an additional module. It shouldn't then feel like too much of a leap and a change if it's within the same software that you guys are all already used to using.

Daniel Jester:

Yeah, that's the ideal, I think, if it's expanding use of something that you're already using successfully in other places that people are already familiar with. Another example of this, and I don't know, maybe because my background's not in retouch, I might put my foot in my mouth here, but I feel like Photoshop does this to me all the time where I all of a sudden will notice a new dropdown in a dialogue. This happened to me yesterday. I was shooting just a little bit of creative outlet time, my structured preschool type work day where I have creative arts and crafts in the afternoon or whatever. That was a bad joke that didn't work. I guess you're kind of laughing. But I noticed it in the..., I use the Select and Mask tool in Photoshop all the time. It works pretty well for simple things to kind of isolate certain parts of an image.

But I noticed yesterday that there's a dropdown now where it has the button that says Select Subject, and you can actually choose between running that task locally within Photoshop, using presumably local processing power, but another option that said that you can send that image out and use Adobe's cloud to perform the task. And it gave you the sort of hint there that you would get a more detailed result from that setting instead of doing it locally where it will happen... It's like this will happen faster, but it won't be as detailed. And that was really interesting to me because now Photoshop, all of a sudden it's bordering on an external retouching service. If this goes out to the cloud, is there somebody sitting back there who's... It's taking longer because there's somebody sitting there actually drawing the path or whatever, creating the selection on that subject?

But I thought it was pretty interesting, and Photoshop does this all the time. You have to have somebody who's aware of the changes in the tools that you're already using, because, again, there may be some feature or some connection or integration or technology adaptation to that that can solve a problem that you thought was unsolvable. And I feel like that's how it comes up a lot. It's not necessarily that you don't realize it's a problem, you just assumed it was unsolvable and that you just had to accept that as part of the process. And we talked about that a lot. We talked about it with Adam Parker. That's kind of the nature of what a bottleneck is when you think about flow production in a studio, that some of it is accepting that this bottleneck has to exist in this way without necessarily thinking about, "Well, can we do anything to get our throughput a little bit more?"

Faye Garland:

Photoshop's such a good example of that. Every update, they like to hide sometimes some of the things that they've changed. We listen to their keynotes, try and learn the big things that they brought out. But absolutely, they hide some of their changes.

Daniel Jester:

I imagine Adobe MAX, I've never been to Adobe MAX, but I imagine they probably... I shouldn't say they just throw all this out there without telling anybody. I'm sure they do, and I'm just not operating in those circles.

Faye Garland:

Yeah, you're right, it's about going out and finding it, right? But yeah, Photoshop is a brilliant example. It's linking in again to AI, isn't it? So when we say something that we didn't think was possible, maybe it's not possible for us to do, but it is possible for all these AI engineers bringing in more and more possibility.

Daniel Jester:

To that point, AI seems like things that would've been absolutely unheard of five years ago, I feel like are totally within the realm of possibility, in particular with AI image isolating tools. That topic's not what this podcast episode is about, but I was talking about this I think when we were in Barcelona, I can't remember who I was talking about this with, but we're not that far away from even something in Photoshop being able to differentiate between a model's skin and the top and the bottom and then automatically isolating each of those portions of an image, which is a lot of the heavy lifting of an on-figure retouching process is isolating the pants from the top, from the skin, from the hair. We'll get there, it will happen. Five years ago, it was unheard of, but now it's like it's just a matter of time.

Faye Garland:

Well, one of the things they brought in recently was the facial recognition, wasn't it? So in the past when we've been asked to make a model look a bit happier, make her smile, you can actually do that in Photoshop now really quickly.

Daniel Jester:

Terrifying.

Faye Garland:

So the technology that maybe existed years and years ago is actually accessible now. And you can build upon that by mixing human and AI together to create efficiencies in workflows within your own studio.

Daniel Jester:

Let's pivot though now and talk about, I think an extension of some tool or technology that you're using in studios is relatively low-hanging fruit. Let's talk about the heavier lift of saying, like, "We're going to introduce some tool that's going to dramatically change the way that we need to work in the studio." We don't want to drop that bombshell on a room full of photographers and stylists and samples teams and digi-techs and retouchers and all of that because that would be disastrous. There needs to be some level of engagement with the teams that are going to be interacting with these tools.

And I'm really sensitive to this because this is true in a lot of areas of life where you want people's input, but to some extent you don't want to get... And this is actually a bullet point on this thing that we want to talk about is you got to be careful really not to get bogged down in hypotheticals when you introduce this conversation to the broader team. You have to figure out a way to have a structured conversation. So what advice do you have, Faye, about seeking input from the team, and how do you temper that against what needs to be done for the good of the studio or the good of the process?

Faye Garland:

The key message is no surprises, right? If something has been highlighted as a problem, then most people should already know it's a problem. Teams are emotionally invested in their work, and that's exactly what you want. But that's exactly why you need to involve them in the process and just be transparent the whole way. So make them feel heard. They're working on it day in, day out. The people that can give you the best advice are the people that you need to get involved in this sort of thing and make sure that they're heard, they've got their input, and that it's transparent across the board, so why you're implementing this change and what you're looking for, and involving them in that process to an extent,

Daniel Jester:

You kind of hit the nail on the head also, which is that there's a lot of context that a mid or senior level studio leadership person is going to have about how this affects potential inputs and outputs of the studio or the process as a whole that the photographer may not have or the retoucher may not have, or whoever's getting impacted by this particular change or adoption of technology. And you want to listen to that person. And a lot of times, and this is going to be true, especially of photographers, they're going to be hyper-fixated on how this is going to impact them in the moment working on set, and it's going to slow them down or it's going to maybe ideally remove something they don't want to do anyway. But it doesn't always work out that way.

There's an opinion that it's going to slow them down, and that's their biggest problem and you have to allow them that truth. That's the truth for them, right?

Faye Garland:

Mm-hmm.

Daniel Jester:

But you also have to give that critical context of yes, it takes you two to three seconds longer per image or per product that you're working on, but it saves 10 minutes of time from these other teams and these other things that are impacted. And for that reason, we have to find ways to adopt this. And then it kind of shifts into a, "Let's remind you back to your first day in the studio, you didn't know how to do any of this quickly, and now you've gotten very good at it. You're going to get trained up on this." And that's a little bit of a segue into some supporting teams, but I wanted to ask you before we get off of this part of the topic, let's talk about UI and creative team members. Let's talk about that user interface, that user experience, because we know, you and I know, Faye, and I think most listeners of this podcast know, creatives are a little sensitive about the software that they want to use, and they want to use things that they're familiar with and that look good to them. Am I wrong on this?

Faye Garland:

Absolutely not. No, UI is so important, especially when we're talking about creatives. So you want people to engage in it. If they feel like it's user friendly, they like the way the look of it, they're more likely to engage in it. So it's definitely a key factor that you need to look at when you are considering a new software.

Daniel Jester:

And I think for the most part, most of the tools that we use in the studio are good about this. They're at least configurable so that you can put the most used things you need where they're very accessible. But I think if you really boil it down, I think it's really critical is just that whatever software solution that you're using, that if there's a task that you have to do all of the time, that that task is very accessible in the user interface.

That's why I always love Capture One compared to... I mean, there's no other capture software that really compares to Capture One in the terms of a high volume studio, but when I would mentor photographers who weren't working in studios that wanted to use Lightroom, I was like, "Look, Capture One is going to make you so much faster than working in Lightroom just because you could put the tools that you need to use all the time in one pan. You can build a custom panel with all the tools that you need and not spend any time digging around menus because that's like..." I mean, I feel like, especially for photographers with my background in photography, a huge part of the cameras that I like to use is a matter of how deep into the menus do I have to dig for stuff that I need to adjust all the time.

Faye Garland:

Yeah, well, that's where... So we've got softwares that we know and love that we use all the time. Capture One and Photoshop are two great examples of software that aren't going to change anywhere soon. They're not going anywhere. If you can find a solution that helps you with a bottleneck that also APIs or has a plugin into these softwares that aren't going anywhere, your creatives are more likely to pick it up and it's more likely to land better because you're not... It's flow production, again, right? You're not taking them out of system to go into another system, into another system. It all works seamlessly.

Daniel Jester:

I remember Helicon is a good example of that. Are you familiar with Helicon, Faye? Yeah, the focus stacking software?

Faye Garland:

Yeah.

Daniel Jester:

Yeah, I think has an integration with Capture One that at least I think you can feed those images directly into Helicon where you can perform the stack. But I know that was a big one. That was a hard one when we were shooting hard lines for Amazon, and we had a lot of focus stacking to do. That was one piece of software that isn't maybe as well known amongst many e-commerce photographers out there is this focus stacking software and how to get the right...

And if you can minimize the amount of learning menu shit in that software, you can focus training them on how to shoot the best possible sequence of images to make sure that your focus stack actually looks great and not total trash, which that's a whole other website, Helicon nightmares, images that people tried to stack that just did not work out well.

Faye Garland:

I'll check that out.

Daniel Jester:

Yeah, I mean, I have to make it, I have to build it. It was an idea. This is ideas happening on the fly, Faye, so I'm going to have to make a collection of-

Faye Garland:

I like it.

Daniel Jester:

Yeah, you nailed the integrations and plugins. Looking for tools that it can integrate with things I think is a win because, again, limiting menu digging, limiting decision points, decision points in particular, I think when we talk about flow production is a big one, like just making the path clear to follow. I don't know any better way to say it than that.

Faye Garland:

Exactly. Just even that feeling of trust, our teams trust brands like Capture and Adobe, it'll help with that feeling of trust that this software is the right way to go because it feels comfortable to them.

Daniel Jester:

Yeah. If your creative software looks like accounting software designed to run on Windows 95, you're probably going to have some users that are a little resistant to adopting to that technology.

Faye Garland:

Absolutely. Yeah, it is an important factor.

Daniel Jester:

Yeah. Let's pivot a little bit... Not pivot exactly, but let's kind of advance the conversation, and it's a little uncomfortable for this one, but it happens all the time. We've all done it. What is the approach when you think this change is going to be unpopular? We've all sat in that meeting room before everybody files in, right? I have to deliver some information about some change to our process that people are not going to like. A lot of times these are forced onto the studio. I think most studio leadership want to do what's right for their team most of the time. But sometimes there are some things that... I shouldn't say it's always forced on the studio, but for some reason it has to be done, there's no way around it, and you know it's going to be unpopular. How do we help the team through that?

Faye Garland:

So it's important to be really transparent with your messaging. So where we've spoken about commercial awareness, just giving them the broader picture, the end to end discussion essentially as to how the workings behind the decision, ultimately, to how we got to that decision because ultimately there's nothing going to be put in place where it negatively impacts the business. So it's just highlighting the reasons behind why that particular choice suited the business as a whole, and ultimately it would've suited more departments, so the majority. So it'll be contributing to the smaller amount of people that might be a little bit put out by it, just trying to explain to them,

Daniel Jester:

Let's kind of close out this conversation, Faye, by talking about how we can support teams before, during, and post implementation. And I think this is common sense for a lot of people, but I think it's worth kind of bullet pointing out, how do we make sure that before implementation, during that process, and after the fact, that we are setting everybody up for success?

Faye Garland:

So there are some practical things as well as people management things. So practicality wise, before, if you can look at things, if we're talking about tech again, specifically, sandbox environments, things like that where you can really check in your own processes, in your own space that what you're looking to implement really works. Awareness, again, just to make sure that there's no surprises, that people know this is coming, even if it's a few months away, keep everybody in the loop and bring those core people in. That's where your management structure can really support you. So rather than having a meeting where everybody on your business gets a say, that's probably not practical, but having those core people in to deliver a message for the people that they represent makes everybody feel heard, and they can then go and keep everybody in the loop with what the longer term plan is.

So during training, so during the implementation, training leads beforehand, so that same sort of way of thinking is if you train the leads up when it's then implemented, they're a step ahead the whole time, which builds trust from the wider team because you've already signed up your leads at that point, and they're comfortable training beforehand.

And some tech companies will offer onsite implementation, and that can help your team feel heard as well, so they'll go around and sit, make sure they really understand your process, sit with certain departments, and make sure that by the time it's all set up and rolled out, it should be a little bit of a smoother transition, given that they've spent that time really understanding your business. So afterwards, it's the training of the wider teams. So that's when you'd roll out your trainings maybe from your leads. Having the opportunity of discovery is something we spoke about when we first mentioned this, wasn't it? So assigning a guru is maybe somebody that really thrives on implementing new systems and softwares. Maybe you've got somebody that you can direct some of your team to that knows this software inside out. Somebody might see it as an opportunity for progression.

Daniel Jester:

I'm glad that you included that bullet point, Faye, because I think that that's a real opportunity for the go-getter in the studio to kind of get some exposure from a career development standpoint. Because oftentimes even a senior photographer who's still on set much of their day maybe is looking for a way to advance their career a little bit or grow into something, and a software implementation project is an excellent way to show... well, I should say first and foremost for that person to learn some new skills maybe that they didn't have or didn't have a lot of opportunity to develop before, but then also because it's a finite project with usually very clear parameters for success or failure, it's just a really great way to take a break from your day to day and take on a project and, again, learn some things but then also kind of show off what you could do in that regard.

I think it's a great way for somebody who's looking for an opportunity to advance their career, to step up and say, "I'd love to be the person who gets trained by the software provider, whoever it is." And just to also kind of put a point on that, training can make all the difference on adoption, all of the difference on adoption. I think I've shared the story on the podcast before that we had, I worked in the studio where we had an Orbitvu device, and we were on a very old version of the software. And on top of being on an old version, I didn't know how to use the software anyway. And I'm the kind of guy who, unfortunately, this is a very toxic trait of mine, but I want to figure it out on my own, even though if there's very clear instructions or guidelines. I want to goof off and kind of figure it out instead of sitting through a training necessarily.

But we decided, okay, we're going to call Orbitvu, we're going to have them make sure we're on the right version, we got updated to the right version, and then I actually got real proper, meaningful training from somebody who... It was interactive, so I was able to explain what I wanted to do, and they were able to point me in the right direction. And it wasn't just really frustrating cycle of me not achieving my goal. And it made all the difference for me. I totally turned my opinion around on this device and how we were going to be able to use it because I had somebody at least just show me how to be competent at using it. So I think that training, and especially when you can find a solution that is committed to not only getting your teams trained but supporting them through the process of using that technology is pretty huge in feeling confident that even if you don't know exactly what's going to happen or how it's going to work, that you can get to the right answer pretty quickly.

Faye Garland:

Yeah, it can be really engaging to bring them on board, and it can be a tool for engagement.

Daniel Jester:

Faye, is there anything else you want to talk about as we're thinking about kind of changing tools or implementing software? Any other pro tips for our listeners out there, bite-size chunks of information they can walk away with?

Faye Garland:

So I think it's really important to always get feedback, always be genuinely open to reversing a decision. Main thing I suppose is that creatives will either thrive on change or become unsettled by it. We ask people to be emotionally engaged. That's exactly what we want. But for your business to grow, you need good change management practices in place and a real focus on people. This is relevant for a change of any size. So something you believe to be a minor tweak might actually really unsettle some individuals, and you should never underestimate the personal element and emotional responses that may result.

Daniel Jester:

That's the pull quote. That's going to be top of the episode to let people know what we're talking about right there. I think that encapsulates it very well. Faye, thank you so much for your time. It was so lovely to meet you and to share the stage with you in Barcelona and then to have you as a guest on the podcast. I hope we have-

Faye Garland:

Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.

Daniel Jester:

Yeah, I hope we have more opportunities to work together in the future. But in the meantime, thanks for coming on and having this conversation.

Faye Garland:

Thank you so much, Daniel. I really loved it.

Daniel Jester:

That's it for this episode of the E-Commerce Content Creation podcast. Thanks to our guest, Faye Garland, and thanks to you for listening. The show is produced by Creative Force, edited by Calvin Lanz. Special thanks to my good friend, Sean O'Meara. I'm your host, Daniel Jester. Until next time, my friends.

Hi, Ian.